Resellers, That Allow You To Resell Resellers Accounts

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Posted by shotgun7, 05-06-2004, 09:20 PM
Say that 3 times fast! lol But anyways, does anyone know of any companies that offer such, i know that they are out there, its just a matter of finding them.
Posted by InSite, 05-06-2004, 09:26 PM
I'd imagine most will let you if you ask - try putting in a host quote with your specific requirements, and I'm sure you'll get plenty of responses http://www.webhostingtalk.com/request.php Good luck!
Posted by cywkevin, 05-06-2004, 09:31 PM
Not very likely as that defeats the whole purpose of the reseller account and adds another middleman.
Posted by rossko, 05-06-2004, 10:44 PM
I can't see many companies really caring what the reseller did. To the company, they get the same amount of money and spend the same prices whehter the reseller sells reseller accounts or not.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-06-2004, 11:02 PM
How does it defeat the whole purpose of a Reseller Account? What it DOES DO is create new revenue stream for the server! A nice one too.
Posted by CoryPippen, 05-06-2004, 11:05 PM
These are called "Power Resellers" and some hosts provide them. There is software floating around and few hosts have it.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-06-2004, 11:08 PM
Actually, I call them Sub-Resellers. I wrote the script.
Posted by IHSL, 05-06-2004, 11:09 PM
You're only saying that because you developed a product to exploit it Now, from a business standpoint, yes, it does defeat the purpose of offering reseller accounts. Brand dilution would be the main concern here. Throw in tiering problems, and you've got yourself a whole mess, that is just not pretty. If you want to offer reseller accounts, and are serious about your business, get a dedicated server, at the very least. When you have spent years building a brand, successfully, you'll understand my point. Brand dilution is not, or should not be, an option for any serious company, wishing to have a bright future. I can understand giving 'reseller account creation' access to a few select customers, but offering it as a sales tool is like putting up a 'going out of business' sign. It's just a matter of time, as the company offering it, smells a little too much like money-grabbing. There is, of course, the odd exception to the rule. httpme, I believe (Voxtreme may have disabled this option), offer this function. They however have the most unique setup that is currently in the hosting sector, and can pull it off, without losing much brand awareness. Simon
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-06-2004, 11:17 PM
Whatever... It's a darn good idea, but you would not know, beacuse your probably commenting about something you have never even tried much less done any sort of martket research on. "brand dilution" "tiering problems" Your so experienced Whoo Hoo!
Posted by IHSL, 05-06-2004, 11:35 PM
You're on a Hosting forum, and you expect Hosting Company employees and/or representatives to not comment on the business aspect of things? So, leaving your childish insults aside; My post did not reference market research, not in the slightest, nor did it reference anything even remotely related. My post is about brand awareness of the company, at tier one level. It references the importance of keeping your brand active, and well known, it does not reference to what resellers want, regarding the option side of things. Something we state to our resellers, that constantly ask for the best way to develop their growing business, is that brand awareness is #1, from the marketing aspect. Targeting, and keeping your sights set on your specific niche is an absolute must. When you grow up, and learn to speak with some respect, then maybe we could discuss the matter further. It is a question that if you wish to develop your idea, you are going to have to come to grips with. I am sure that you are not releasing a 'one-time' product, and I'm also sure that you wish to develop your business, and offerings. This question will come up from any potential clients of yours, sometime in the future, providing you are going to target outside of the WHT arena. FYI: we do plenty of market research FYI-2: No, we have not tried "your" idea, and would never consider doing so. We wish to stay in the public eye for our sector, as we have done so in the past, and will do so for a long time to come. Simon
Posted by CoryPippen, 05-06-2004, 11:41 PM
You act like your the only one...
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-07-2004, 12:07 AM
This is the only secure real commercial product available. The others are hacks. Show me one. I'll show you a hole.
Posted by TechRanker, 05-07-2004, 02:13 AM
Why would I want to have an account with another reseller?
Posted by mdrussell, 05-07-2004, 05:32 AM
FYI, we didn't disable the aforementioned option.
Posted by Todd Main, 05-07-2004, 06:16 AM
does anyone understand this thread anymore? Or more to the point - what?
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-07-2004, 06:32 AM
Most reseller suppliers will let you purchase a reseller account on your client's behalf, and then pass that account onto your client. Your supplier charges you for the reseller account, and you inturn charge your client. You do have to provide direct tech support for your client, as this is not your reseller supplier's responsibility. They support you and you support your client. If hosts are setting up reseller accounts, that allow other resellers to setup other Reseller accounts, the server is as good as dead. It might hold up for a little while, but that won't last. The reseller model by itself is hard enough for servers, and you cannot have a 2nd level of resellers under the 1st level, reselling from that space. You cannot have resellers setting up full reseller accounts for other resellers, as there is a very strict number of allowable resellers per server, and this has to be controlled by the head supplier, and not controlled by resellers. Sure, the option for resellers setting up reseller accounts, might look good for some hosts not ready for a dedicated server, but take my word for it, that server will choke up in the coming months. If you're a reseller on a server that is allowing resellers to setup reseller accounts, run while you still can.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-07-2004, 07:57 AM
The only thing you mention here that has any truth to it is the part about the the number of resellers needing to be controlled by the "head supplier". This is true. So make sure your software does that for you and you have more than just a handful of scripts. As far as the rest, about how the "server will choke up in the coming months" ? Any server will choke up in the coming months without proper care and maintanence.
Posted by kubicle, 05-07-2004, 08:04 AM
ultraunix.net just started offering their "magic resellers" program
Posted by wheimeng, 05-07-2004, 08:20 AM
Fergus has developed a cPanel add-on like Fantastico that allows resellers to create reseller IMMEDIATELY. We have tried it and have no problem with it thus far other than the ability to import existing resellers but I believe the feature is coming soon...
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-07-2004, 09:28 AM
I am talking from years of experience up to managing 28 reseller servers, when I sold HTTPme. I have the runs on the board and credibility to speak of such matters. Unlike you, I have no financial interest in this discussion. Allowing your resellers the ability to create other reseller accounts, leaves the server open to a greater chance of instability. That's a no brainer. You can only have "X" number of resellers on any given server. Increase the number of resellers, by allowing resellers to setup resellers, and you expodentially increase the chances of server instability. Yes, but you don't increase the chances of server instability, by doing things like that. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Posted by wheimeng, 05-07-2004, 09:34 AM
Please keep this topic back on track. Take the flaming off here.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-07-2004, 09:43 AM
Posts are perfectly ontopic. Noone is flaming.
Posted by wheimeng, 05-07-2004, 09:47 AM
Thread starter wanted to know any providers that could fulfill his needs. Did not ask for server stability or what-so-ever.
Posted by kubicle, 05-07-2004, 09:53 AM
Yea - i agree completely offtopic. the man only wanted to know a basic question and someone hijacked his thread.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-07-2004, 11:18 AM
Simon's been in the game a long time and knows his stuff. He can speak with credibility gained from real life experience over a long period. I can't believe you would be actually mocking him for discussing aspects of this flawed concept. Really bad form.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-07-2004, 11:20 AM
Well we are discussing aspects of resellers setting up reseller accounts. The thread evolved slightly, as they do from time to time. If you feel the thread is off-topic, have a mod delete all the so called off-topic posts. I hope the thread starter takes some of the advice that's been offered in this thread, and steer clear of any server that allows resellers to setup other resellers.
Posted by pmabraham, 05-07-2004, 11:32 AM
Greetings: Imagine your the customer of Company Z who resells for Company Y who resells for Company X and so on. You call Company Z for support. They don't know the answer; they tell you they will get back to you. Company Z calls Company Y for support. They don't know either; Comany Y will get back to Company Z. Then company Y calls Company X for support. They don't know either; Comany X will get back to Company Y. And so on while the poor customer is left hanging. Sigh. Thank you.
Posted by ldcdc, 05-07-2004, 11:37 AM
If someone comes up here asking for help in finding reseller accounts with unlimited space/data transfer you'd just refer him to someone? I don't think so. You'd try to explain what's wrong with that business model. This is what Aussie Bob and Simon tried to do. They offered an educated opinion on this. It's up to the thread starter to act or not on it, agree/disagree with their opinion. He/she can also say "back on topic" or ask the moderators to trim the thread.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-07-2004, 11:39 AM
Times change and you have got to change with them. There are always new ways to do things. Better, faster, smarter, newer. Although it has been attempted in the past, some with good results and some with bad, it has not been done the way that it is being done now. That involves programming expertise not selling hosting. Change with the times or be left behind. Of course, you can always catch up later. So i suggest to anyone with doubts to just sit back and watch the results of others that use this NEW way of doing it.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-07-2004, 11:40 AM
Exactly. Offerring reseller accounts is a whole new ball game than just standard hosting. You need to have your act together and be on the ball, otherwise a client purchasing a reseller account from another reseller, is going to be more than likely let down, through the extended chain of support. Anyways, that's my opinion.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-07-2004, 11:42 AM
Unless the support chain is built into it
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-07-2004, 11:47 AM
Experience says otherwise, but you obviously know better. Good luck (you will all need it) to anyone venturing down this path. I have said my bit, and tried to warn folks, so we'll leave it there.
Posted by TechRanker, 05-07-2004, 11:47 AM
Me to my Reseller: Can you install the latest patch for MySQL? my Reseller to his Reseller: Can you install the latest patch for MySQL? his Reseller to his Reseller: Can you install the latest patch for MySQL? his Reseller to root Reseller: Can you install the latest patch for MySQL? Root Reseller to his client: No his client to his client: No his client to his client: No his client to Me: No Me to my Reseller: Why not? ... * forgive me, I'm bored * Mulder
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-07-2004, 11:53 AM
I don't think you misunderstand what we mean by support chain. You cannot build this into anything. It's the link from the Tier 2 reseller to his supplier (the Tier 1 reseller) who is linked to the main host, through whatever support channels are used. These are external to the actual server in question. Read through dynamicnet's post for a clearer understanding of the support chain in such a structure of allowing resellers to create other resellers.
Posted by DreamHost-MikeS, 05-07-2004, 11:57 AM
Haha, I think that would be the most extreme case. I do have to agree with Aussie Bob on this one. It basically dampens the amount of control you have over how many accounts are put on the server. Sure, you can limit their domains and such, but it seems like things would get out of hand quite fast. cPanelSubs does have a financial stake in this thread, and I think his position of having one is confirmed by practically taking credit for creating the idea of reselling reseller accounts. "I wrote the script." A little vain, eh? Also, those childish comments made to someone who very well does know what they are talking about removes all credibility that cPanelSubs might have had in my book. I wouldn't use a script from someone that has to make lame remarks to defend what it provides. That's just my $0.02, however.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-07-2004, 12:47 PM
I do understand your fears, when you understand how it actually works, then you might not fear it so much. There's much more to it then a single little script. We will see what the future holds for this.
Posted by mdrussell, 05-07-2004, 03:22 PM
I would fear it from the fact that it's a single little script and that you can base an entire multi-level reselling platform around this. The exponential load it will ultimately put on the server is going to be pretty devastating, I'd imagine. Dangerous game to play.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-07-2004, 03:47 PM
Maybe you misunderstood the post above yours? It states clearly that it is NOT a single little script. Anyone who has tried it knows better. It automates what you would normally do to create a reseller account and even allows for moderation of it. Accounts that not authorized will not be created. The server administrator has ultimate control over what is created and the database that drives the software tracks all the users. It also has a built in support tracking and ordering system as well. The above comment you make "The exponential load it will ultimately put on the server is going to be pretty devastating, I'd imagine. Dangerous game to play." is simply unfounded. It is no different than any reseller having the ability to setup any other type of accounts as far as that is concerned. ALL quotas and permissions are accountable. Your argument has no fact, only specultation of how poorly it could be used if in the wrong hands. That idea could be applied to any type of account or server.
Posted by mdrussell, 05-07-2004, 03:54 PM
Resellers adding normal virtual accounts will represent a linear increase on server load. Resellers adding reseller accounts and virtual accounts, and the resold reseller accounts adding reseller accounts and virtual accounts can cause exponential load increases on the server easily. All it takes is a busy day for all of your resellers and the server is overwhelmed. I agree, similar situations can happen with normal reseller accounts, however resold reseller accounts add a whole new dimension to this. Basically, resold reseller accounts adds a whole new layer of potential problems. Your seeming inability to recognize or acknowledge this is pretty worrying, but it's your choice. I, for one, will be watching with interest.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-07-2004, 03:58 PM
The last two posts that you made had bad information in them. This staement is ALSO not correct and shows that you have NO understanding of what the program is. Of course your AFRAID of it.
Posted by mdrussell, 05-07-2004, 04:02 PM
I exaggerated to put my point accross. If my statements are so incorrect, why not show me the error of my ways? If you continue to converse in a rude an arrogant attitude, you'll receive little support. Touch of advice from a WHT old timer
Posted by IHSL, 05-07-2004, 04:07 PM
I have a tip, and it will be something you should keep in mind for the years ahead: Gain, or learn the ability to be humble. Accept criticism not as an insult, but as constructive. Nobody has insulted you, the discussion is regarding the many potential risks of the idea. My last tip, is to be a little more respectful to your peers, it will be something you thank yourself for, sometime later in life. Every person in this thread that has had something to say to you, or about the idea, has been shot down with no forethought as to whether they are actually making sense or not. 'Proceed blind, and get run over' - famous quote, rather fitting. Simon
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-07-2004, 04:14 PM
No one is being "rude" or "arrogant". What I am doing is pointing out your, to quote you, "exaggerated point". Please stick to facts. I have explained some of the processes of the program. They went ignored.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-07-2004, 04:24 PM
For your information, I have raised two adults, both in college, and sit before 40 - 60 more each day. And yes, I was insulted, and you are person that did it. You speak from both sides fo your mouth and then hide behind a comment like that? So your quote sounds like a threat to me. "Proceed blind, and get run over" What burns me up, and is clear to see, is that the idea of the program is just BASHED not critiqued at all. Then you tell me I can't take the criticism. Funny.
Posted by IHSL, 05-07-2004, 04:36 PM
cPanelSubs; You are in a public forum, based on the Hosting sector, and replied to a post of mine with insults. It does not matter if you are 13 years of age, or 93 years of age. You still need to learn the ability to be humble. I offered an opinion, based on a very extensive background in this very industry. My job isn't tech support, my job isn't even sales, my job is making sure my company heads in the right direction. I have done this for a long time, and I would like to think that it is at least mildly successful. Based on that, I offered my opinion to the thread, in a very non-threatening, and non-abusive manner. You retaliated to my post with an uncalled for, and rather ridiculous snide insult, which showed you in your apparent true light. In business, you sometimes have to bite your tongue. If you do not agree with what somebody has said, the best thing is to put your point across, and leave it be. However, replying in an abusive, and arrogant manner, should not be even tolerated on WebHostingTalk. I did not mention your product, other than saying your opinion was biased, because you have a product that exploits the ability to perform such tasks. Hence, you have a vested interest. Check my original post a second time, you may notice that not only are you way out of line right now, you were yesterday, also. Good luck with your business, I sense you are going to need it, with the attitude that you are showing at the moment. Simon
Posted by mdrussell, 05-07-2004, 05:09 PM
Once again, your arrogance is demonstrated. I do not know Simon. I've never spoken to him personally. I've seen his posts on WHT and that's as far as it goes. We don't exchange knitware or similar, much to your disappointment. I agree with what he is saying, however. People have offered constructive criticism based on their experience, knowledge, etc. They get no reward for giving you this feedback, but when your arrogance kicks in and you make rude and uncalled for replies you will anger people. Approach it in a sensible manner. Make valid points to critcism raised, prove you are right through the quality of your answer and not belittling people.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-07-2004, 05:24 PM
I saw NO constructive anything. Only "exaggerated" comments with no facts to back them up. Then when I point the finger at you for doing so, I am at fault. Your little tag teaming effort here is doing well to keep the thread alive. I hope your reaping the benefits, I am. In the end the end users will decide if they like it or they don't. So far, it's going very well. I also create other applications and frequent 9 other forums. Most are related to engineering. Your more than welcome to come along and create a little tag team there about other applications you know nothing about. As for this thread, and this little tag team, I have no more time to spend on you. If you dislike me, fine. I only asked that you actually TRY IT before commenting on it without any knowledge. Seemd to escape you though. Good luck anyway, really. Good day.
Posted by astutiumRob, 05-07-2004, 09:11 PM
thread starter is being "educated" by people in the business baout whyit *might* not be a good idea, as well as which vendors supply the software to allow it, and so forth probably *more* on topic than most of the threads ... IMHO opinion allowing a reseller to offer reseller accounts is a no-no, too many reasons why, including the ability to monitor TOS/AUP - the resellers resellers haven't made a direct agreement with us, we prefer to restrct the number of resellers to a cluster etc. if the thread starter is wanting to setup resellers under themselves, then working that *from* a reseller account is likely to lead to more problems than the small financial saving will compensate for, and they shoudl be looking for a managed dedcated with a CP that allos them to add their clients and the resellers
Posted by cywkevin, 05-07-2004, 09:32 PM
And the legal issues with different aup's and tos's flying around. Makes for one legal nightmare. But hey what do I know I live in the past and resist such marvelous changes, and can't see the future of this marvelous sales tactic
Posted by wheimeng, 05-07-2004, 09:47 PM
As far as I know, only tier-1 resellers able to create reseller. Anyway, its just a niche and we are on it and doing fine, you can just stay out from this niche. Cheers!
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-07-2004, 11:31 PM
Ok that does it. I was being nice but the gloves are off now. It is pretty obvious you have know next to nothing about managing reseller servers, and fail to understand the complexities involved with this dynamic platform. The Reseller platform is difficult enough to manage with the 1 Tier of resellers, nevermind adding another Reseller Tier into the mix, that greatly increases the chance of server instablity. I asked you how many reseller servers you manage and you completely avoided answering my question. So we know that is big ZERO servers. You insult those in this thread who between them probably manage more than 100 reseller servers, and many thousands of resellers, and many tens of thousands of domains. They know the reseller business - it's how they make a living. FACT - allowing reselles to add other resellers beneath them who resell to their clients, will expodentially increase the chances of server instability, create delays and inefficencies with support management to all reseller levels. FACT - you have a conflict of interest with this discussion, in that you derive a monetary benefit from the type of product that we are discussing. We are not discussing your product - we are discussing resellers being able to create other resellers who resell to their clients, and the inefficencies and problems that can result in operating under this type of platform. We're raising legitimate red flags, not out of "FEAR" (as you so arrogantly claim), but out of real concern, based around many years of real experience. Noone is bashing this concept. We are just raising valid concerns and insights that we have gained with many years of experience in this platform. To sit silent would be an injustice. My advice to resellers that want to offer reseller accounts - wait until you are sourcing your hosting supply from your own dedicated server/s, and when you have built up a sufficient platform to actually provide good tech support for your resellers. Supplying resellers is a few notches above supplying normal hosting and there is a LOT more responsibility in this market, for you. Work your way up to them as it's not something you can jump into quickly.
Posted by cywkevin, 05-08-2004, 12:15 AM
Well spoken as always bob.
Posted by The3bl, 05-08-2004, 02:27 AM
As has been pointed out in this thread by many it is a bad idea for a number of reasons not the least it can lead to unstable and over loaded servers. No matter how much control you place in the script you are still adding layers of resellers selling more and more domains. And not the least of it is the ethics of it,. how many of you looking for reseller hosting would feel comfortable if you found out you were buying your hosting and placing your business in the hands of a reseller that may or may not have the financial stability and commitment to stay in business long term? I have seen too many resellers close down, move on, get bored etc.. leaving clients hanging, add another reseller and their resold accounts under them to the mix and it is a disaster waiting to happen. Sure the ability is there to offer resellers the ability to resell reseller accounts but so is the ability to offer unlimited space and bandwidth, but it is wrong as it is nothing but a marketing gimmick, same with this. It is nothing but a marketing gimmick and those doing it are grabbing for the $$$'s with no concern for the industry or the end user. IMO.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-08-2004, 03:44 AM
Yeah, what Techark said. Excellent advice there from another reseller supplier with years of real experience dirt under his nails.
Posted by shotgun7, 05-08-2004, 04:53 AM
Thanks everyone for your input (pros...and cons alike) I didn't mean to get everyone p!ssed! But, i will for sure be taking a seirous look, and have a better understanding thanks to yall
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-08-2004, 05:04 AM
No worries. It's a good topic for discussion and we hope you are now well and truly confused, errrrr, I mean informed.
Posted by shotgun7, 05-08-2004, 05:15 AM
Little late there! LOL but hey, if i knew everything - - that would take the fun out of it! Thanks again!
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 09:51 AM
The proof is in the pudding" is what I was always told. Thanks to all those how have decided to give it a try over the past 24 hrs!
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-08-2004, 10:17 AM
Just wondering from someone (not cPanelSubs) who is using this type of software allowing resellers to setup other resellers, how do you handle IP delegation for personalised nameservers? Host 1 - top level host, manages the server Host 2 - has Reseller account with Host 1 Host 3 - has Reseller account with Host 2 I suppose Host 3 needs to ask Host 2, so Host 2 asks Host 1 to assign some IPs, so that Host 2 can let Host 3 configure those IPs to the nameservers when Host 2 sets up the Reseller account for Host 3. IP configuration for personalised nameservers is not something that can be automated by Host 3's Reseller account, as Host 1 would be controlling the IPs. For the record, I truly feel sorry for any hosting client purchasing a hosting account from a reseller attempting to build a hosting business that is doing this under another reseller, who is leasing a dedicated server from another host who is reselling that dedicated server for another host.
Posted by wheimeng, 05-08-2004, 10:19 AM
Thats how world works isn't it? Buy bandwidth - DC - reseller - buy servers from reseller - sell hosting That's even more tiers
Posted by IHSL, 05-08-2004, 10:21 AM
Yep. There should be a particular limit on the number of tiers, and the idea of resellers having resellers, in my opinion, just takes it too far. Simon
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 10:42 AM
I will try to explain this without offended you but... You went wrong when you "Suppose" that's how it works. You see... The software allows for IP delegation. So if reseller 1 selects for example a "Gold Plan" we will call it, and the Gold plan has a given number of IP's, he can assgin these ip's as he sees fit downstream. He can even use the IP MANAGER (part of the software) to track the use of the IP's Also this statement that you make here is not correct: "IP configuration for personalised nameservers is not something that can be automated by Host 3's Reseller account" Wrong again. It can be automtaed by Host3's reseller account. Next...
Posted by wheimeng, 05-08-2004, 10:49 AM
cPanelSubs allow resellers to assign IP to their reseller (if any IP is allocated to the tier-1 reseller). It is pretty widely scoped.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 10:51 AM
I would like to make a plea to those that are posting in this thread to keep down the "exaggeration" of what this actually is. It paints an off color picture of the software process. It's seems to be a deceptive even though I know you don't intend to try and cloud the issue. Here is the quote from Aussie Bob that is a complete exaggeration: ::: "For the record, I truly feel sorry for any hosting client purchasing a hosting account from a resleller attempting to build a hosting business that is doing this under another reseller, who is leasing a dedicated server from another host who is reselling that dedicated server for another host. " ::: If this was not part of the discussion and thrown in as a general comment then fine, but then... it is out of place. Please stick to the facts. I asked that about three or four times now.
Posted by astutiumRob, 05-08-2004, 11:02 AM
Nah, most of us rent suites in DC's , organise our own transit, peer everywhere, and sell hosting DC } transit } Us { customers peers } don't like too many tiers :p
Posted by astutiumRob, 05-08-2004, 11:04 AM
nameservers dont need their *own* ip's anyway, and it's no longer valid justification to get IP space
Posted by IHSL, 05-08-2004, 11:12 AM
cpanelsubs, you're missing a vital point: This is not a thread about your software. I'm not sure why you're taking any posts as a slight against you, when the first person to mention your software, was infact you. The posts being made by myself and others, are about the idea of it, not the software it's self. The idea of the reseller of a reseller having complete IP delegation permissions is just purely frightening to me. Not only does it drop a trail of support issues just waiting to happen, but what happens at the time when a reseller's reseller's customer needs a new IP, for instance? I can tell you what happens then, but you'll take it as a slight against your software, whether it's mentioned or not. Again, I must reitterate, nobody mentioned your software, until you did. You asked to stick to facts, but refuse to accept them. You have several major reseller providers in this thread, giving you facts (again, not about your software) but not only do you ridicule their idea's you insult them. Now, let me actually (for the first time) comment on your software it's self; It seems to be well developed, a very entrepreneurial in it's development, knowing that it would have a market. It does seem to me like it's basically a 'WHM' inside of 'WHM'. Now, for my own clarification, and to satisfy my curiosity, when developing this, did you give a thought to it obviously being the 'ultimate' overselling script, if so, what justification did you give it, with the obvious point of the actual tier 1 host having to put their server in grave danger to install cpanelsubs? Did you tie something in that means an account could not be created unless the allocation is already in the first resellers account? What justification did you give to the people buying the software, for their obvious mass-increase in support issues? Was this reflected in your pricing, or was it not a thought? If you can answer those questions, without insulting me,that'd be great. Simon
Posted by cartika-andrew, 05-08-2004, 11:21 AM
wow - what a thread - I dont believe all these established hosts are "afraid" of anything - particularly Aussie Bob who has already built his business, made his millions, and retired on the beach However, I would have a serious concern with the reseller provider reseller packages.... Now, we dont allow overselling - we dont practice it in our environment and we dont allow resellers to oversell either - now - what would you get if you sign up with a host that 1) oversells their server (which seems ti be fairly common these days) allows their resellers to oversell and 3) has resellers selling reseller packages that are also able to oversell - Wow - I will stay FAR away from this thankyou As for cPanelSebs - the "creator" of this script for Cpanel - I am very happy this has worked out for you and you have made some sales - However, if the circumstance I outlined above occurs (which it most cetainly will) - you will have alot of upset customers to deal with and your customers will have alot of upset resellers and resellers of theirs and end users and oh - got a headache thinking about it...
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 11:28 AM
Sure thing. You have two questions here: 1.) "Did you tie something in that means an account could not be created unless the allocation is already in the first resellers account?" YES. As you already mentioned, it is sort of a WHM in a WHM. So having a clear understanding of the WHM, you can answer part of this question for yourself. I also added another layer that allows for "package type" assignments. If it's not assigned to the reseller he just can't create it. Restriction by quota, plan type, and number of plans that any reseller or sub-reseller can create as well as the added layer of "package types" has that covered 100%. 2.) "What justification did you give to the people buying the software, for their obvious mass-increase in support issues? Was this reflected in your pricing, or was it not a thought?" A support ticketing system specifically for the use of the program is another feature available in the program. While pricing for any providers services can only be calculated and established by the provider, it is obvious, and evident with those providing this product that these Reseller Creation type accounts are a great stepping stone to the next level. These accounts are priced higher by the provider.
Posted by IHSL, 05-08-2004, 11:32 AM
So these really aren't resellers that resellers are creating, then? They are basically agents, selling predesigned reseller accounts, by the sounds of what you just said. Honestly, it sounds more like an affiliate script, from what you just said. Simon
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 11:37 AM
The overselling issue is very important. But, that is still left up to the server administrator just as it always is. I did point out numerous times in the software (in all the places it should be) that overselling and allowing overselling is a bad idea and that I strongly recommend against it. I have considered removing the option completely but it is not my place to tell the provider how to run his business. A very valid point you make. I don't think the overselling feature should ever be "toggled on" in any hosting softare. That's just my opinion though.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 11:46 AM
Well, this is turning into a "What is cPanelSubs and how does it Work" thread. If you want to see how it works, try it. If you want to continue to speculate on how it might or might not work, that's your right but it's only speculation and should be considered as such by the readers of this thread. All resellers and sub-resellers created by cPanelSubs have a WHM. A real WHM. So, yes, they are resellers.
Posted by IHSL, 05-08-2004, 11:52 AM
See, there you go again. It's only turning into a cpanelsubs thread, because the 10 or so posts you did, all accused people of insulting your script. My point with your script, is that I don't think many resellers would class your script as having the actual capability to create a real reseller account. If they cannot define what their resellers allocation is, it's very limiting. I'm done with this thread now, as every time I post something, you shoot it down, and turn into a walking advertisement Simon
Posted by CoryPippen, 05-08-2004, 11:57 AM
Usually when a client requests permission to sell a reseller (wich is entirely ok), we ok it first then setup WHM on his clients account. By the looks of your program cPanelSubs, it seems like a lot of headaches and working overtime. No offense.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 12:02 PM
I just want them to stick to the facts about what it is and what it does. Nobody accused anyone of insulting anything except you. But they CAN define what the resllers allocation is. Do you even undertsand hwo WHM works? I am starting to think that you are new to cPanel. Not to hosting, but I think cPanel is new to you. Is it? That's not an insult, just an observation. When you ask me to explain how it works, I have only responded with 1.) How it works! Please except my apologies for anything I have said that could be considered as a personal insult.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 12:11 PM
No offense taken. The software does the same thing. It lets you "OK it" first. Then it actually cuts a few steps because you can setup all the resllers functionality without having to go back to the WHM create account and then over to the reseller center to set permissions. It also allows you track them all. No offense here but when you say, "it seems like a lot of headaches" does not speak from experience with the actual use of it. It will actually cut down on some things... But... as pointed out by Simon earlier, having "Sub-Resellers" (while crateing new income stream) also creates new support issues. You must be aware and prepared to handle these issues.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-08-2004, 12:54 PM
Noone is afraid of anything. Some very experienced Reseller suppliers have raised some legitimate red flags as to allowing resellers the ability to setup other resellers. That's it. We're sorry if this offends those who have a vested financial interest in selling this type of software. If the truth hurts, then so be it. I couldn't give a monkey's donkey. hehe, not quite . . . Yes, so would anyone with experience in this marketspace. Wise choice indeed. The whole concept is a crazy gimmick, aimed at enticing inexperienced reseller hosts into servicing the reseller marketspace, while they themselves are still at the reseller level. Fortunately this thread has enlightened a bunch of hosts, who I am currently communicating with, who wanted to head down this path, but no longer will. So some good news there for the hosting industry.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-08-2004, 01:02 PM
Nope, that paints a true picture and is not an exaggeration. That describes what happens when a client purchases hosting from a reseller, who purchased his supply from another reseller, who purchased his supply from a host leasing the dedicated server, and so on and so on. Sorry if it doesn't fit in well too with your ad copy.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 01:28 PM
What does it have to do with the software? Nothing. Just an attempt to cloud the situation. It is off topic and childish. You don't really post fairly in my opinion Aussie Bob. Like I have said about 6 times now, the end users will make a decision. The smart ones will gather all the information they can get. That includes reading this thread, trying the software, and speaking to others, yourself notwithstanding.
Posted by cartika-andrew, 05-08-2004, 01:58 PM
I think your opinion is flawed I have been on WHT for awhile (not as long as Bob or some of the others ) - but, long enough to know, this statement is BS... Bob built a very successful reseller hosting business - and I can tell you one thing for particular - his advise and posts are always intended to be helpful and fair...
Posted by GreatDaneOwner, 05-08-2004, 02:03 PM
Whoa! Sorry, couldn't resist. Why is it that you refuse to pay attention to the points raised by a couple of well-respected people? You haven't addressed their concerns but labelled them instead. GDO
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 02:15 PM
In this instance, the post is a bit misleading since it could give the idea that that is what the software does or causes to happen. My interest in the software is motivated more by the creative aspect then by the financial aspect. So, maybe this is the reason I have defended it so fiercly. Nobody is going to scratch out much a living with inexpensive hosting add-ons and that is certainly not my intention. The idea opens another opportunity. This opportunity has been considered by a few hosting software providers as of recent. I have been contracted as a consultant for one of them. I respect the opinions of all of those that posted here. I wish them all the best in whatever they do.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 02:18 PM
It looks to me like when the points were addressed they moved away from them. What point did I not address? Please be specific and I will do my best to offer my retort.
Posted by GreatDaneOwner, 05-08-2004, 02:22 PM
Never mind. I knew it was useless to reply. If you don't see what I mean, there's no point in explaining. Good luck with your venture, GDO
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 02:34 PM
What do you mean? I just want to back up your post. What points? Be specific.
Posted by IHSL, 05-08-2004, 02:39 PM
Ok, I'll bite. I've been working with CPanel for a long time, thanks for the snide comment though, much appreciated. If you want to get technical on the CPanel side of things, shoot away. I may employ my tech's to take care of that, but I make darn sure that if I have to do something, I know what I'm doing. Here's what I said: Now, look at that real close, and look at your comment of: So, my comment stands, cemented in it's position. According to you, the reseller cannot create reseller accounts per se, unless that "Package Type" was misinterpreted. If it was, then I apologise. I will lastly say (yes, i'll even ignore further insults), that just because an opportunity comes up, to make something, does not mean it should be exploited, without full research into the repurcussions. If this type of mechanism was meant for CPanel, it would have been implemented. That in it's self shows you something. A few H-Sphere owners (myself included) shot this type of idea to bits with pSoft, not so long ago, when the 'Nested Resellers' idea was brought up. Unfortunately, it seems that Igor and his group are going to cash in on the idea, against the better judegment of the H-Sphere owners... who knows, maybe they'll see sense. Good luck with your future programs. Simon
Posted by cartika-andrew, 05-08-2004, 02:45 PM
Simon, No need to defend yourself here - just laugh and call it a day - youve done a great job at explaining why this is a bad idea... This I didnt know - and to be frank, is causing me some concern... I really liked the built in "host control" hsphere had - kept everyone honest so to speak - hopefully Igor and the rest of the group at psoft rethink this one....
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 02:47 PM
Your post supports my position very well. Thank you. For a clear understanding of how it works, you should read the documentation.
Posted by Website Rob, 05-08-2004, 02:48 PM
I find it interesting that after 6 pages of postings, only one person has suggested using the 'host quote' feature and not one post recommended anyone. Could it be because this feature is still so very new? People can debate the "concept & viability" of this feature all day long, it will still come down to Resellers selling to Reseller as being a niche market. Same thing as when Rollover Data transfer first came out. Some business's will go after these types of niche markets and some will not. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong as, we all know, if there is a Market demand than someone will provide to that demand for as long as there is a demand. And not wanting to be left out I can see where, if a Server is setup and dedicated to providing Resellers selling to Resellers type of accounts and managed properly, could work out very nice for everyone. After all, most of us already have Servers dedicated to Resellers only and setup to a method that works for our business. How many levels down one goes for this type Reseller feature, I can only see one myself, depends on the company. As long as the Server owner has acceptable control & limitation all the way down the line, the only problem I see is using software that does a very good job. Let us also note, there are problems with all Control Panels currently available, regardless of what type of Hosting is provided. And no, I'm not getting into discussing any software as that is a totally different topic altogether.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 02:49 PM
One reason it's a "bad idea" for some is that it bites into the marketshare of some that have well defined models in place.
Posted by cartika-andrew, 05-08-2004, 02:57 PM
Sorry to say - but - NO Again - this isnt peoples concern - the people here, and the businesses here are dynamic and survive and thrive in this industry because of their ability to adapt and change - there is no well defined model in place that people are "afraid" to change - this is simply your warped vision of reality blinded by the fact that you feel your product creates a new market. If this was a viable, stable and reliable idea - people would jump on board - I see MANY problems with this model, and frankly, its not worth the hassle, even if many people were interested in it.. Obviously others here, with loads of experience, see the same issues and potential problems - why would anyone, with a solid understanding of this industry, willingly walk into a bad situation... There will be people that jump at this because of the lure of money - all I can say, is there will be many hosts here ready to pick up the refugees -
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 03:10 PM
Ditto. It's a niche market. It's a matter of choice. It's controllable.
Posted by shotgun7, 05-08-2004, 07:40 PM
Nice to see I can start a long lasting post
Posted by MCHost-Marc, 05-08-2004, 08:37 PM
Its very doable, i see no problems with it. We've been offering it to our clients for a long time, but have never officially advertised it. Of course, there is an added layer in the support/service chain, though.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-08-2004, 09:35 PM
Marc, you're talking about letting a reseller of yours resell one of your reseller plans to their client. Yep, that's doable, and controllable, as you setup the reseller account that is passed onto your client, who passes it onto his client. You're not giving your resellers the ability to create other reseller accounts beneath them. Am I correct?
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-08-2004, 09:53 PM
Nothing can replace full Reseller WHM access, no matter how you dress it up. FYI, I couldn't give a monkey's donkey about marketshare. I'm no longer in this business as a reseller supplier. I and other experienced reseller suppliers have raised legitimate concerns with this extra Tier of resellers on a server, and know it's adding a bad element into the mix, which not only causes extended support delays (for the end user) but also increases the chance of server instability, substantially. If folks want to benefit from those many years of experience, fine, that's ok. If they want to ignore that experience at their peril, that's fine too.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-08-2004, 09:58 PM
It is full WHM access, or did you miss that part. It's in the thread. Your commenting about something without even knowing what it is.
Posted by KualoJo, 05-08-2004, 10:02 PM
Totally agree with you Bob. People need to start thinking once again about the experience of the end user, and not just about capitalising on a new product and filling their pockets with cash. Ultimately if the experience for the end user is worsened, that is something which damages the reputation of the industry as a whole. With the image of the hosting industry in tatters already in many disgruntled users minds', that's surely not something any of us want to see happening. If you really are serious about getting into a reseller business, get yourself a dedicated server, fully managed if needs be, and do it properly. If you've got a good, well thought out business model then that approach will ultimately set you on much firmer ground for both you and your clients.
Posted by Website Rob, 05-09-2004, 01:08 AM
You know, there have been and always will be, experienced Web Hosters raising legitimate concerns with Hosting Porn and know it's adding a bad element into the mix. It's a shame that the negative energy floating around in this thread is not directed towards Servers Hosting Porn. That is something that damages the reputation of the Industry as a whole. Lots of people doing it for the sole reason of lining their pockets with cash and much more destructive, than a feature of Resellers selling to Resellers ever would be. Given a choice between Hosting Porn or Hosting Resellers that sell to Resellers, Porn would lose everytime with the majority of Hosters -- myself included. And let us not lose sight of the fact, the thread starter was looking for referrals of Hosters that offered a feature they were looking for -- not, if people thought it was a good idea.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-09-2004, 01:12 AM
Well said.. And without "porntification"
Posted by robert adams, 05-09-2004, 10:10 PM
I don't see any connection between the subject of this discussion and porn. Whether there should be porn on the net(therefore should there be hosts for it) is simply a personal moral matter. The discussion about reselling resellers, has been about the technical problems that it can cause. luck, robert
Posted by shotgun7, 05-10-2004, 12:46 AM
I think the keyword there is CAN. Sure, if its a one man show, and the one man always has to contact the host that offers the service just to ask what way the wind is blowing sure thats going to be bad on the end user. But if you have someone that knows what they are doing, and maybe even has a staff then the end user should be fine. The whole internet could crash, and every website out there could go down, does that mean we shouldnt have web sites and do online biz? Everything has its pros and cons, I guess one just has to look at what works best for them and the end user
Posted by TheWiseOne, 05-10-2004, 12:05 PM
In response to the initial question, a reseller looking to be a reseller may be interested in a Virtual Private Server. A VPS will provide full admin access and easily allow the creation of resellers. VPS's generally go for the same rates as Reseller accounts. It also solves the problem of a reseller asking the upper level reseller to enable a feature on the server, the upper level reseller can go and do it themselves without having to contact anyone else.
Posted by SubReseller, 05-10-2004, 04:33 PM
yes a long chain of command can be a problem, and there is a possability of it turning into a game of chinese wispers and a VPS does solve this problem. however, some people are still a little wary of VPS as they seem like quite a big leap from a reseller account
Posted by TheWiseOne, 05-10-2004, 05:25 PM
Yes, I know first hand how that is a for a lot of people. It definitely takes a little bit of learning, but it's not a lot. If you have a provider who performs security and server updates for you that is a big plus as it's a lot less work that you have to do and 1 less headache. I'd also recommend using the control panel you are most familiar with. For example, if you have a reseller account under WHM / cPanel now purchase a cPanel VPS. Everything will be very much the same, just with some new options. The biggest problem will most likely be learning how to add resellers, but cPanel provides documentation for that.
Posted by Blind Freddy, 05-12-2004, 09:21 PM
Have read the previous posts with interest, and remember the dramas of trying to run a hosting business on a reseller account that was on the first "tier" of resellers on a server. (Along with Aussie Bob when he was just a tadpole psychologist :-) The strongest bit of advice I can offer anyone is to go for your own dedicated server if you want to go into the hosting business. Your hosting business is totally controlled by the people above you in the chain. Your business can dissapear instantly if they stuff things up. Minimise your risks - Select a reputable provider of servers. Don't hunt for the cheapest. Get it managed properly if you don't have the skills. The reseller cascading software discussed here is probably excellent, and may work very well. Its ultimate success will hinge on whether sufficient people take up the model of cascading reseller accounts. It all reminds me of the poem "Big Fleas, Little Fleas," by Robert W. Hegner: "Big fleas have little fleas, Upon their backs to bite them. And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum. " My business experience tells me that it's not a good idea to be one of the smaller fleas. Regards, Eric G.
Posted by nightfall_sg, 05-13-2004, 06:01 AM
If I am a guy looking for a hosting company to buy a reseller package, I will not want to be buying from someone who bought it from someone else. Simply because I rather get it from the source, where I can address problems I face with the product. Actually the idea of able to resell reseller sounds cool.. on paper. This reminds me of MLM concept, where most common folks won't get to buy good products from the source but from their distributors.. We all know how many people (the lowest distributors) got burned when their upline just decides to leave after collecting money from them or when they fail (And in their scheme of things the multi level is an open secret) As for me, I don't think companies who are selling hosting plans will let you know that they are reselling for so and so. If they do disappear (and they do), who am I going to look for? At least in MLM scheme they can contact a head office , scream and get them to buy back unsold goods at 90% of what they bought it for. Then again, some MLMs are successful. In Life we never know..
Posted by cybercoach, 05-13-2004, 07:11 AM
Thanks for the thread. Shotgun7 how about emailing me everytime you start a new thread. Really interesting reading guys. It's kind of a techo-soap opera
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-13-2004, 09:04 AM
It's not "reseller cascading software". What is does is create a second level of resellers and sets up a support chain for them.
Posted by cartika-andrew, 05-14-2004, 08:12 PM
Well, heres a great thread I stumbled upon today - This certain company was advertising a great system to maintain "almost 100% uptine" - some sort of proprietary fail over system they developed or something - anyway - they also offered this resellers selling resellers package thingy - http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...=cart+features Dont know if this means anything, but their site has been down for hours - so - either their "failover" system doesnt work, or their reseller/reseller thing caused havoc (like most suspected) or both - who knows - maybe its something unrelated to any of this - but - thought it was worth mentioning...
Posted by Website Rob, 05-15-2004, 01:20 PM
That thread refers to hosting provided by e-z-hosting.com and, if I remember correctly, they were already having lots of problems with providing regular hosting accounts. http://www.webhostingtalk.com/search...der=descending
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-15-2004, 01:58 PM
And they do not have my software installed. The site says they do it manually. A HUGE mistake since it is not trackable unless entered and tracked manually. On a per account basis it also has no setup integrity. Who knows what the standard is form one day to the next doing it that way?
Posted by InSite, 05-15-2004, 01:59 PM

Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-15-2004, 02:06 PM
This is a direct quote form the e-z-hosting thread referenced above: "you simply email us the specs (space / bandwidth) of the reseller accounts you want and we create them for you either one by one (once you have an order) or by bulk (like 5 or more at a time) so that you have them ready for your customers. "
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-15-2004, 02:23 PM
I won't comment on the ridiculous notion of "New EXCLUSIVE failover system! . . . No other Web Host out there has it!". That's not worthy of my comment, but anyone with any real experience in managing reseller servers, will tell you that allowing resellers to resell reseller accounts under their reseller account, is a recipe for disaster, that will lead to massive server issues, no matter how well the server is managed. I mentioned this thread to a genius sysadmin I know, and he couldn't stop laughing at such utter foolishness.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-15-2004, 03:51 PM
Well, you have a right to your opinion, even it is wrong.
Posted by shotgun7, 05-16-2004, 02:51 AM
Whys that? For advanced warning for another one of my awesome post? LOL
Posted by cartika-andrew, 05-16-2004, 08:26 PM
I thought you might like that one
Posted by shotgun7, 05-16-2004, 09:41 PM

Posted by @Matt, 05-16-2004, 11:34 PM
I believe clook.net offers this feature
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-17-2004, 03:22 AM
You can most probably resell one of their reseller plans - most reseller suppliers will do that, but I seriously doubt that they will give their resellers the ability to create full WHM Reseller accounts under their Reseller WHM account.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-17-2004, 04:09 PM
I don't recommend doing that. There are numerous problems that can arise from not having a trackable system in place.
Posted by cloudrck, 05-17-2004, 07:25 PM
You mean VPS, because i don't see anything about a 'reselling a reseller account'. I've heard good things about them. Anyway, the fact is, if a person wants to sell reseller accounts, he gets a dedicated server, or maybe even a vps, or become a reseller for a company. Other then that, i don't see why you would want another 3rd party piece of software, when the control panel itself is good enough, like Bob said, you don't want to pack the server with software. You start messing up the purpose of a control panel, then when something goes wrong, you'll end up not knowing who's to blame, the sub-cpanel softare, or cPanel itself.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-17-2004, 07:39 PM
Why not? Please explain why you "don't know who's to blame" If this statement is any reflection of your linux experience, you might not want to comment so boldly on technical issues. If I can answer any technical concerns you might have regarding this or linux administration in general, feel free to ask.
Posted by Jim_UK, 05-17-2004, 08:01 PM
Just to confrim, we offer resellers a discount on further reseller packages that they resell to their clients under their own name/brand. A lot of hosts will provide this. We do not offer the feature of resellers being able to create reseller accounts or anything like this (even when resold as above they need to be created by us). In my opinion this is a dangerous game to get into and I can't see the feature of clients being able to create reseller accounts becoming a fixture on any of our servers any time soon.
Posted by cloudrck, 05-17-2004, 08:08 PM
Sort of like the RHE & Dual Xeon issue thats going on, cPanel blames RH, RH blames cPanel for the problems, while some servers with RHE & cPanel run fine. Before it was the Kernal that came with RHE, and you had to custom compile your own, or wait til RHE released an update. Like I said, too much stuff on your system, will just bring more bugs to fix.
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-17-2004, 08:09 PM
I have been employed as a consultant to add it into one control panel system already and there is at least one more that I know of that is also going that route. Eventually it will be a normal feature.
Posted by IHSL, 05-17-2004, 08:29 PM
I highly doubt it Most CP developers, whether they like it or not, end up listening to their distributors. I for one, have stated we will hotly contest pSoft doing such a feature, and I am not alone (long, long list of providers that know their systems will be in uproar). It would not surprise me in the slightest to see the feature end up in CPanel, but so long as they have a "remove feature" option, that's not too bad. The one thing that is going to be bad for you, and I say this honestly, is the fact that if the idea does make it into a few CP's, you're going to have a LOT of top companies adding "why we don't use this feature" to their FAQ, that can only be bad for the feature, as more and more providers see past the extra money influx. I can't see the idea ever being approved by SW-Soft either, to be frank. Simon
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-17-2004, 08:52 PM
Features should always be left to the server administrator to add or remove. Some just like plenty of options. You will see it soon.
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-17-2004, 09:17 PM
Yep, you're 100% correct Jim. Funny how all the experienced hosts are against this type of "feature". Gee, I wonder why?
Posted by InSite, 05-18-2004, 01:12 AM
Then I guess no-one needs to buy your software, do they?
Posted by shimon, 05-18-2004, 01:23 AM
but lets say i got a miny free webhosting compiny and only 1 reseller account and i want other admins to have there own account that i dont have to share my password....
Posted by Web Style, 05-19-2004, 09:58 AM
Hey people do not buy the cpanelsubs software, you'll be screwed!!!!! Look at this thread the first - it's about it: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...hreadid=273607 The Fergus (cpanelsubs) has no rights to sell it! Look the way you can use it by that link. I think we'll release it as open-source soon!!!! Do not be screwed by Fergus Brennan and Kevin Kemp!!!! 2 Moderators: sorry for this post, but I am really think that people don't need to buy the script until we'll solve the problem between my company and noc24. All customers who already bought it got an emails from us where we told them to stop using the software and that the all licenses from Fergus are illegal! It's true! Don't remove this post please! Thanks!
Posted by Project X, 05-19-2004, 10:17 AM
is this the kevin kemp from NOC24 deal that they are talking about in the other thread? edited: ooops, i didnt see that last post, hadnt refreshed... so i guess this is stolen software??
Posted by Web Style, 05-19-2004, 10:34 AM
yes, he trying to sell the stollen software at least until my company and noc24 will not resolve this problem....
Posted by Project X, 05-19-2004, 10:46 AM
i dont even understand why you are waiting for kevin to make good on this?? the fact is, someone is trying to sell stolen software and you should do something about it before you lose respect for yourself and others do to.
Posted by Web Style, 05-19-2004, 10:59 AM
I am waiting for his response. He still not replied me! If he will not reply and will not pay me, the software will be released as open-source from next monday!!!!!
Posted by nightfall_sg, 05-19-2004, 11:00 AM
damn.. this thread is even better than soap on TV!
Posted by foogee, 05-19-2004, 11:28 AM
ProWebSpace offer this service. However I don't recommend them as they have had more than their fair share of unreliability and excessive downtime. Avoid at all cost. This may on the surface support everyone who is skeptical about the reliability of resellers reselling reseller accounts, but actually it was more likely due to incompetance and overselling. Also, HostElite is ProWebSpace so they're best avoided too. HTH a little, Foogee
Posted by ldcdc, 05-19-2004, 11:30 AM
I highly doubt that Mr. Dmitry Yeskin a.k.a. Web Style feels the same way. Or even if he does, I'm sure he doesn't find it amusing. I wonder what cpanelsubs (Fergie) will have to say about this. I really wonder...
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-19-2004, 11:31 AM
As you may know, there have been recent claims regarding rights to the source code and the development history of cPanelSubs 'Lite'. I first developed the script allowing resellers to create reseller accounts more than three years ago for Kevin Kemp of noc24. There are any number of kevins clients and colleagues that can astest to that fact. This is not a new project. There are also some old threads here regarding it that date back long enough to show evidence of that. In the fall of last year Kevin decided to add a billing system to it. He outsourced it to a guy named Dimitry in the Ukraine and paid him $400.00 up front. The source code from my orginal script was sent to him at that time. Well, months went by and not much happened. Concerns grew. Then Dmitry disappeared. Several months later, after several posts were made to the forums that he frequents, he reappeared claiming to have been moving his offices. He then produced the billing portion of the project you can see in this screenshot here A striking resemblance to ClientExec billing program shown here I had a look at the code he sent over to Kevin. It was full of errors, security holes and snippets of other programs as well as what I think is a direct rip from clientexec. Only they would know. I evaluated the code, it could not be used for a commercial product or any other reason for that matter. After an agreement was struck with kevin, I took over the project again, this time for myself. The PRO version will be released after I complete the development of my original project myself.
Posted by Web Style, 05-19-2004, 11:45 AM
In the fall of last year Kevin decided to add a billing system to it. >He outsourced it to a guy named Dimitry in the Ukraine and paid >him $400.00 up front. The source code from my orginal script >was sent to him at that time. No! The Kevin payed me $400 after the 3 months of development... Your source code was buggy and didn't work, also your source code was a code to add the subresellers only - there is just a 20-30 lines of code. I will post that code here if you want! >Well, months went by and not much happened. Concerns grew. >Then Dmitry disappeared. The Kevin knew about it. I told him that I am moving my office!!!!!! >Several months later, after several posts were made to the >forums that he frequents, he reappeared claiming to have been >moving his offices. I didn't used any forums until now!!!!!! >He then produced the billing portion of the project you can see >in this screenshot here Yes that was a middle version of the system. It is a template-based and there is an empty template on screenshot! >A striking resemblance to ClientExec billing program shown here That system was showen as example to us! And Kevin asked to do it. I have a first emails in my mailbox where we agreed it and structure it! >I had a look at the code he sent over to Kevin. It was full of >errors, security holes and snippets of other programs as well as >what I think is a direct rip from clientexec. Only they would >know. We uploaded every day new update just to show to Kevin how we work, to let him also test it, find a bugs etc.... >I evaluated the code, it could not be used for a commercial >product or any other reason for that matter. All you did is to added template (in template-based system) and encrypted code with Zend! >After an agreement was struck with kevin, I took over the >project again, this time for myself. >The PRO version will be released after I complete the >development of my original project myself. By the first pay us!
Posted by Web Style, 05-19-2004, 12:04 PM
People, the Fergus selling illegal software! I don't see any exit from this situation - I will release it as open-source! People please belive me the Fergus don't have anything that is different that our script! The script of Fergus is illegal and you'll have it for free from monday!
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-19-2004, 12:20 PM
Why do you need to wait until monday? Is it not ready? Do you need to make some adjustments? Even if you release the original source that includes MY script, it won't have the security fixes I just added a few days and even emailed out to existing users days ago. So by all means, go ahead and release it. Then we can all see the sloppy cut and paste code you threw together.
Posted by Web Style, 05-19-2004, 12:31 PM
You just agreed that you stealed the script from us. People do you see this? The discussion is closed. Please don't buy it cause in Monday you will have it for free. We must to prepare website for offering it and advertising campaign. I am really glad that we'll give it to all of you for free!
Posted by trustedurl.com, 05-19-2004, 12:34 PM
I am not taking sides here, but would love to see this resolved. There are 2 things that both of you should take note of. First, #1, the script (or a first version of it) was (initially) developed by cPanelSubs for noc24. Both of you seem to agree on this. This raises a few concerns: - who owns the copyright at that point? - did cPanelsubs offer noc24 an exclusive license? A non exclusive license? All rights? The answer to that question will make a big difference in the end. #2, I'll infer from this that noc24 had full rights but re-assigned them to cPanelSubs (and this is only applicable to the "initial version" of the code). Any code added to it by WebStyle is subject to the agreement with noc24. If noc24 hired you as a contractor to do the programming then you have no copyright to script, but have a labour/contract dispute with noc24. If noc24 licensed the software from you (exlusively or not) then you still own it over the additions and cPanelSubs should work out a deal. Either way, the root of the problem (to me) seems to be the alleged non payment by noc24. Anyhow, keep it civil and work it out
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-19-2004, 12:59 PM
Your exactly right. The source of the original code is mine. I did it as a friendly gesture for Kevin of noc24. That's it. I still retain all rights to the copyright. I just wish he would have come to me for the changes in the first place.
Posted by Web Style, 05-19-2004, 01:06 PM
Hello, all! 2 Idologic: No the first system was written in Perl and was not a Kevin's - that was a PerlBill. I found a coder and he can agree with that! We have downloaded some version of cPanelSubs sometime ago. It's our system just encoded by Zend and added a design template. We will release our improved version in the Monday as open-source with new cool design template and new fixes (but I really think that there is nothing to fix now - our version dated 30 April), but now we had uploaded two scripts (one from cpanelsubs) and second our (all are really the same, just the cpanelsub stealed it from us and added design and encrypted) to our server, and you can download and compare their structure(the cpanelsubs file is much bigger than us because they added design there, we have no templates added): http://www.webstylestudio.com/cPanelSubs_Lite_V2.01.zip (it's some version from cPanelSubs) http://www.webstylestudio.com/Securi...ase_Update.zip (it's some later version from cPanelSubs) http://www.webstylestudio.com/Hostin...30.04.2004.zip - it's our version without design template and encoding Compare them! The cPanelSubs lier!!!! He's not a good man. Don't work with him anymore, don't bye it from there. We'll give it to you for free without any encoding with more better design! Thanks to all, and good luck to all!
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-19-2004, 01:11 PM
Perbill does not have the SubReseller feature. Not sure how this has anything to do with me.
Posted by UberTec, 05-19-2004, 01:35 PM
Why don't you just pay him what you owe? Surely if you say that CPanelSubs is doing so greatly, you can afford it... right???
Posted by trustedurl.com, 05-19-2004, 01:53 PM
Hi Web Style, as I said I was just assuming things. I will take a peek at the code as I find this all fascinating and I hope both of you can work it out. Btw, the last link doesn't work. Thanks
Posted by alex_k349, 05-19-2004, 01:58 PM
Acctually i have US copyright on the scripts, so you may fight over it as much as you want but Dimetry has my permission to sell it and Kevin from NOC24 does NOT I will provide the copyright papers to the mods here if required
Posted by trustedurl.com, 05-19-2004, 02:06 PM
I thought Dmitry claimed he had written the disputed code for noc24? What's the filing # for the copyright? Again, I just find this interesting and I learn new things
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-19-2004, 07:19 PM
That just takes the damn cake! I would like to see that! Who the heck are you?
Posted by dftchris, 05-19-2004, 07:55 PM
So I know there are some honest resellers that tell on their site that they are resellers for a particular company (people could find out anyway so why not tell them). So now we may be seeing "We resell the services of host A who resells the services of host B"? It seems to me that these re-resellers would never be able to tell their customers that they are re-resellers. I would think that would make people run. So This whole concept is just something that will create more THIS HOST SUCKS threads on WHT. I know I'm making a mental note of which hosts are supporting this and which hosts arent so I know who not to go with. Edit: I guess I missed this whole last page before I posted.
Posted by sghost, 05-20-2004, 07:32 PM
A VDS would be better for this case ??
Posted by Aussie Bob, 05-21-2004, 02:37 AM
Best if you could post links to those threads, as you bought them up.
Posted by Digicreation, 05-26-2004, 02:32 AM
I dont know why this is even going on besides the fact its a daily soap. First off there are plenty of profesional hosting companies here that have said this script or addon is going to be bad in the long run. I myself see this addon as being a major headache. One tier of resellers is a headache let alone 2 tiers. I would not buy it for the simple fact of having to deal with the chain of support headaches. Like others have mentioned in this thread host B asks host A asks Server owner/leaser "can we add this etc etc?". Then you have to follow that chain back down to the low man on the totem pole. As far as the copyright stuff goes. Both of you need to hire yourselves some lawyers. Third grade antics in a major webhosting forum makes you not only look foolish but both unprofessional. I would not buy the addon becuase the so called owner is immature in my opinion. I dont care how old you say your are. Any business type person would not present themselves this way on a public forum. I wouldnt outsource any php job to the other for coming to a public forum and airing out their laundry on a bad business deal. No matter who is at fault. Im not trying to flame but voice my opinion on this. I have read both major threads concerning this and to me it is a waiste of WHT's bandwidth. This should of been settled in a private setting via e-mail, telephone, a post card even but not here.
Posted by cartika-andrew, 05-26-2004, 02:24 PM
Very nice to see customers taking the time to be educated and understand what they may be walking into
Posted by mrzippy, 05-26-2004, 04:49 PM
Copyright issues aside... I don't understand why the experienced reseller hosts are so against this software. Please read my post below before replying... My questions are specific and your response should specifically address my questions. First of all, this issue reminds me of when mchost came out with the "one account unlimited domains" here at WHT and many existing companies thought they were nuts. (yes, I know they weren't the first to do this.. I'm using them as an example only.) Now, this concept of reselling is established in the industry. httpme/voxtreme itself is proof of that. (Yes, I realize httpme doesn't allow unlimited domains anymore... but voxtreme does, etc..) OK.. now on to my questions. I do see this software working acceptably, with the following assumptions: 1) The server owner is not overselling. 2) The "parent" reseller is not allowed to oversell. 3) The server owner places "total number of domains per reseller account" restrictions on their resellers. 4) The software is able to restric the total "sub-reseller" usage to whatever limits are set for the reseller. If these assumptions/limitations are in affect, then I don't see what is the problem with regards to resource usage and instability. So for example, let's say that reseller 1 has an account with 6gb disk, 60gb bw, and allowed to have 100 domains. Then reseller 1 uses the software to create reseller 1.1 and reseller 1.2. They are "sub-reseller"s and each are allowed 3gb disk, 25gb bw, and allowed to have 40 domains. How is that bad? The total amount of resources used by all these sub-resellers is never over the amount given to reseller 1 because the software restricts the reseller to only be able to create reseller accounts that fall within the limits of their own reseller account limits. And if the server is not being oversold, then what is the problem? With regards to the "long chain of support" issue.. who cares? Who cares if your reseller has resellers under him and then clients under that? All you need to know about (as the server owner) is that you are supporting ONLY your one reseller. It is up to that reseller how THEY wish to support their own customers, regardless of whether their customer is another "reseller" or an end-user with a website. It is not your concern. Yes, it might be nice of you to consider the poor end-user... but in reality, this is NOT your concern. With regards to TOS... you MUST be sure your reseller understands that they are bound to it, and so are any reseller accounts they create, including all end-user websites, etc.... Summary It seems most of the "experienced reseller server owners" in this thread agree that this style of reselling is not a good idea.. and that it will not be good for the end-user who just wants a website. But as far as actual server resource usage, server stability, and how the software itself works... I don't understand what is the problem, as long as the server is not being oversold and has the assumptions I made above... what is the problem? Last edited by mrzippy; 05-26-2004 at 04:55 PM.
Posted by The3bl, 05-26-2004, 05:47 PM
mrzippy If you use the assuptions above then nothing is wrong with it from a technical point of view. But very few of the host offering that feature are doing that. I still have problems with it from a ethics point of view, now if the reseller admits upfront he is a reseller to his resellers that is fine also. But from what I have seen the people that want this feature the most seems to be kids, the very ones without the resources to stay in business long term. Now maybe you find it OK for some poor guy that is trying to get into business and betting his families last $$ on his hosting venture to end up buying from a reseller that may or may not get bored and close up tomorrow. But to me it is is a very important point. Sure that can happen with any host he chooses but the more you lower the cost of entry into the business the more the chances of it happening. Who's business is it that is end user gets screwed? It is mine and every other host that does this for more than a hobby and cares about this industry and reputation it is earning.
Posted by ldcdc, 05-26-2004, 06:53 PM
I will have to agree with Techark. If and if and if then. Too many ifs. I can tell this much: If none of the hosts would oversell the industry would have a much better image. But that's just an utopia. In reality many - if not most - do oversell. Some do it wisely while some do it foolishly. Ideally they would all do it wisely. Under particular conditions this "resell reseller accounts" thing could work quite fine. Back to reality though, how many resellers are actually ready from a business/knowledge/maturity point of view to offer reseller accounts of their own? Few, very few. That is the reality and that's where the danger resides. (All is IMHO of course.)
Posted by cartika-andrew, 05-26-2004, 07:19 PM
Thats alot of assumptions - especially since the "overselling" feature is standard issue with CPanel. But, there are other issues.. One of the largest problems for us with resellers is the clientelle they can sometimes attract. Unlike our own business, which we setup and market to a specific target audience - you cannot really influence the types of clientelle your resellers are targeting (though targetting specific types of resellers does influence this somewhat). mass mailing, cgi scripts, .htaccess, etc... are features every host has made available to their clients (at least to some degree)- however - all of these can be used to compromise server integrety... 1st degree of risk - your resellers 2nd degree of risk - your resellers customers This can be challenging enough for even the most experienced providers - now add... 3rd degree of risk - your resellers resellers 4th degree of risk - your resellers, resellers customers Each "degree of risk" raises exponentially - Furthermore - as you move down the chain of providers, your inherent knowledge of the clientelle decreases - theres just no way I can see this being a stable, viable solution...
Posted by mrzippy, 05-26-2004, 07:37 PM
Gargoyle, I'm not sure there is much validity in that... Since you have no control over your 2nd level resellers (resellers customers), what is the difference then if you don't have control over 3rd level customers? At the 2nd level, it ceases to make a difference since they are ALL equally unknown. Also, if you are concerned about this being a problem then a simple solution is to allow sub-reseller ability ONLY to your resellers who are willing to sign a TOS or contract with you regarding whom they allow as their customers. We do this anyway for our resellers. We don't allow just anyone to be a reseller. They must be a particular type of company, and we don't accept all customers to be resellers. So you could still offer sub-reseller capability, but only to those resellers who are willing to sign an additional TOS or whatever....
Posted by mrzippy, 05-26-2004, 07:47 PM
Is it your job to be the hosting industry police? Do you offer reseller accounts right now? If you do... do you ask your resellers (before they sign up) if they are "ready from a business/knowledge/maturity point of view" to be in the hosting business? What do you care, as long as they aren't able to exceed your server resources. I'm not saying that the ability to create sub-resellers is for everyone. What I'm saying is that I do see this as something very useful for some situations. Like anything, it can (and will) be abused). It reminds me of the "one account unlimited domains" mindset that was so foreign and rejected by many people here at WHT when it was new. Now almost all hosts offer unlmited reseller accounts, and some have even build their entire company around it. The same arguments were given for that issue. Lack of control over end-user domains. Increased chain of communication for customers regarding support, etc.. Inability to control and monitor resource utilization. Blah blah... All of these issues are the same. Over time, the tools have become better and now these issues aren't even discussed! So why is this different. in that sense, I do agree with the author of the subcpanel script... this concept of allowing resellers to create their own reseller accounts IS GOING to happen. The tools will get better, and more control will be necessary... but it will happen. It is too useful not to happen, and we all know that this industry is directed by the masses. It is NOT directed by ideals or nice philosophy of how we wish things to be. So the question isn't "if", but "when" this happens... As established reseller companies, what features do you want to see in these "sub-reseller creation" scripts? ie: 1) Ability for server admin to specify a "hard limit" for the top-level-reseller. So no matter how many sub-reseller accounts are created, the total amount of bw, disk and domains can NEVER be more then allocated to the top-level reseller. 2) Ability to easily/quickly see who is the top-level reseller for any domain on the system. 3) Ability to specify a max size limit for sub-reseller accounts. (ie: can't create higher then 1gb disk, 10 gb bw, 25 domains). 4) etc...
Posted by cartika-andrew, 05-26-2004, 07:52 PM
Hi Mr Zippy, We are also very selective about who our resellers are - and yes, they must also sign off on TOS, etc... However, I must disagree, the risk does increase with each level (at least this is our take on it)- regardless of these precautions... Your comment above best illustrates my point - Your resellers may not be as selective with who they offer reselling to - regardless of the TOS they have signed off on... I look at it all as probability for disaster - and I just see the probabilities sky rocket with this scenario - frankly - having a TOS which enables me to remove an account under predetermined circumstances is great - but, it doesnt help me if my server(s) is down... Anyway - I dont expect you to agree - I just think this is a concept I will stay away from - If you are particular you could control the variables and that the risk associated with reseller customers is no more then the risk associated with resellers resellers customers - then please give it a whirl and let me know the results - Im honestly curious, as I always error on the side of safety... prove me wrong and Id be happy to consider it...
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-26-2004, 08:02 PM
That is an assumption on your part as well Techark. "very few hosts offering that feature are doing that" Do you have any evidence of that?
Posted by mrzippy, 05-26-2004, 08:03 PM
I agree with you on this. But in reality.. if we treat every customer like a convicted thief then what is the point of being in business? The majority of customers will abide by the TOS they have agreed to. Otherwise they are (I presume) risking having ALL their accounts/sub-reseller accounts suspended by you. Only a very foolish reseller would risk that. yes, they are out there.. but I don't think they're the norm. If your TOS are clear about the consequences, then I think you'll be mostly safe. There are always exceptions, but that is the risk of business. lol. I think we're all in the same boat with your opinion. All I'm trying to do here is stop people from willy nilly throwing out the concept of sub-resellers... and giving the software authors a chance to define and refine their tools. Instead of everyone just saying "I won't do it and I think you're all stupid for considering it"... why don't we all give the software authors a very long list of must have's that their software must be able to do (or not do) before we will seriously consider it?
Posted by mrzippy, 05-26-2004, 08:08 PM
cPanelSubs, My advice to you is to just sit back and don't post any more into this thread unless you are specifically asked a question. I have tried to turn this thread into a general thread where we can provide constructive feedback into software features necessary for public acceptance of software such as yours. If you continue to inflame and insight people, you will do yourself more harm then good. People are entitled to their opinion, and whether it is TRUE or FALSE it is still their opinion. You aren't going to win a lot of support if you insist on correcting every person with whom you disagree. Just let it go, and let's get this thread on track so that you can see what features are needed for your software to be useful and accepted by the people who do this for a living.
Posted by IHSL, 05-26-2004, 08:16 PM
mrzippy, I see you have some good points. I also see you have some comical points. I am guessing you are seeing this from a user level, and not from the level of the provider. So, that said, let me be selfish, and use ourselves as an example, based on one of your questions. Q: If you do... do you ask your resellers (before they sign up) if they are "ready from a business/knowledge/maturity point of view" to be in the hosting business? A: Yes. Our policy reference pages clearly outline particular level's of criteria that must be met, to attain, and maintain a reseller account with us. This largely pertains to the offering they provide to their clients. Now, regarding this: Yes, of course some will use it. Most, will not. Why do I say that? Because most reputable providers will see that not only is this a catastrophe waiting to happen, but it's something that *will* be the death of both their brand, and in time, their reputation. A case in point would be the part mentioned a few pages ago, regarding pSoft, and the swiftness in which many H-Sphere owners stood up and said "thanks, but no thanks", to the nested resellers idea. Another case in point, would be that if development companies thought this was a good idea, it would have been implemented a while ago. It's absence in the top 5 CP's, go to show this I also strongly disagree with the statement: I'm sorry, but that could not be more incorrect. The 'masses' control 'WHT-type' environment ideal's and pricing, not the web hosting sector, in the least. Stating that a company is not based on ideal's of where they should head, is a touch funny to me; my entire company was, is, and will always be based on our perception of how a provider should act, provide, and support clientele. I am quite sure we'll be around long after those that sing to the tune of 'pied piper' type idea's. I think Fergus himself seems to have talent, I hope he matches those talents with the amount of experience he will gain by somewhat of an inside look at the hosting sector as he pitches his product, and support's it. I have no doubt he will work with a number of developers over time, but I would hazard a guess that his idea's will be more targeted globally, than to a minority in the future. Simon
Posted by cPanelSubs, 05-26-2004, 10:14 PM
I am not here to win a popularity contest. I am a person that likes to stick to that facts. Anything else is BS.
Posted by mrzippy, 05-26-2004, 11:28 PM
If you hope to have your software make it "big", then you're going to learn how to let things go and not take everything personally. If you really have some need to "correct" every single person with whom you disagree then you're going to rarely do any coding because you'll spend all your time arguing and fighting with your potential customers. Here's my last tidbit of advice, from one software author to another. You might have the best software in the world, but if people don't like you (for whatever reason) then they aren't going to trust your software. You might not think this is a popularity contest, but your software is directly tied to you and your reputation. If you expect to sell your software here at WHT, then be prepared to have it attacked. If it is any good, then the features and software will speak for itself. Let your existing users defend you. Getting mad at people is just going to make you and your software look bad.
Posted by The3bl, 05-26-2004, 11:48 PM
Only evidence I have is visting some of the people that have offered this service and asking them a few questions as a potential client. That is enough to show me that it is a bad idea. Last edited by The3bl; 05-26-2004 at 11:58 PM.
Posted by ceo, 06-23-2004, 12:07 PM
mrzippy, Your post was along the lines of what I've been thinking while reading this amazing thread the last hour or so. I see sub-resellers useful from 2 points of view. The first you've made quite clear, where, with checks in place, a business can be set to exploit this kind of model. I would personally not find this even partly unethical (keeping in mind only the truth is spoken when questioned). The other is such a scenario: - My clients each have 10 or so domains, and yet not the knoweldge OR money OR time to deal with a hosting company by buying a reseller account. They would rather prefer a reseller account from me, just to use it for their accounts, and NOT as a business to resell. Basically meaning a WHM for them. I know this could be setup by requesting my Hosting company. However, I would prefer it automated. Also, with automation, I assume the end-price for such sub-reseller servers accounts will be cheaper than normal reseller account that's available.... Let's take ONE of my requirements & see if any existing model can fit in as a solution. If none, then I would believe this is a great solution. The requirement : A Dedicated server, to sell accounts to resellers only, but with someone to handle installing all the normal scripts such as Cpanel/WHM/other freebie scripts (for end-sers). Without further information, this would be categorized as a managed server. With quick browsing, Managed servers are far too expensive for the kind of support required. Assume a current Reseller account has 30 free scripts available to end-clients. If I were to take a managed server with say 25 such available scripts, and needed just those 5 more, the support would be quite something, in terms of time & money. With a current Hosting provider having fulfilled my expectations on support issues & script requirements (examples), if there was s sub-reseller account available, I'd happily go for it. Limited domains on the next tier & other checks would not keep this account absolutely UNLIMITED, but there is a market even beyond that. I guess a good part of the hosting market as of today has matured from the unlimited everything days. So, hel pme if I'm naive, and correct me where wrong. Thank you, RR

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