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Which is worth learning?
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Posted by Ultralite, 05-30-2008, 06:11 PM Hi, Well, over this summer me and a friend are hoping to learn a new language (how cool?!). We are decent at html and css, we will just revise that over in a few days to make ourselfs 100% satisfied with it. But now my main point, we want to learn a language, i mention php, but still thinking whether to choose it or not. I want something that is very creative and can do lots. I don't really know what ajax and c++ also visual basic etc all do? Can someone please help me in choosing this summer "activity". Thanks, Ultralite
Posted by stefanhinote, 05-30-2008, 06:54 PM Don't learn Visual Basic, its a crappy language, not very powerful. Since your already into "web" by doing html and css I would say to learn PHP. Theres a lot that can be done with it.
Posted by Nick Charlton, 05-31-2008, 07:19 AM Indeed, Visual Basic is a crappy language and will therefore be a waste of your time in learning it. As you are going to spend you time learning it, you would, in my opinion be better off learning the most flexible language you can. By flexible I mean something that will last you for years, and not be platform dependent. The older Microsoft and newer languages, such as ones which run under the .NET framework are inherently uni-platform (although cross-platform stuff does exist) and even if this is your main OS you don't know what you will be doing in 10 years time. With this in mind I would learn something which is best in the long term. As you mention that you have already started learning web markup you may want to look into PHP to boost this with some server side stuff. However if you would also like to produce desktop apps I'd read into C/C++, skills from here can be transferred into PHP too. My advice would be to take it slowly, decide on the language you think is best then buy a book on it. I'm currently reading; "C Programming in Easy Steps". Nick
Posted by Codebird, 05-31-2008, 12:09 PM go with php and javascript at the same time could have so much creativity with html and css
Posted by Ultralite, 05-31-2008, 01:02 PM Wow, thanks guys. We'll i'm still looking into it. I'll let you know what i end up choosing!
Posted by tinkertim, 05-31-2008, 02:26 PM If you really want to gain a good grasp of what your code actually does to a computer, go with a low level language (like C, not C++) first. Beware, its hostile for beginners but worth learning. Even with just a few months of experience in C, you'll find branching out to C++, PHP and Java much eaiser .. and you'll appreciate what higher level languages do for you. You'll find a wealth of C related code and tutorials to study with a simple Google search. Learning C will never hurt and will surely help you in the future.
Posted by case, 05-31-2008, 03:01 PM If you want an OS agnostic multi-use language that was written properly I recommend PERL.
Posted by canishosting, 05-31-2008, 03:11 PM I'm gonna second this one. More and more applications are moving to the web. PHP also has a strong community behind it for help.
Posted by BurakUeda, 05-31-2008, 03:13 PM Python is pretty popular too. Also I looked at ActionScript 3.0 recently, and I was surprised that it grew to a solid OOP language. Might worth to look at.
Posted by Jamie Edwards, 05-31-2008, 04:01 PM PHP won't usually teach a person programming. Although it is a very good language (and I do not like 'anti-PHP snobs'), it is untyped and inherently stateless. If you would like to teach yourself programming, I recommend doing C and then Java or C++. C will teach you how your computer works, how it handles memory and so on. It will also instil good programming practices in you. If you are strapped for time, I'd recommend jumping into Java - in my opinion it is easier to pick up and is 'safer' (it is not a razor blade - see below). Programming in Java will also hand-hold you towards object oriented programming moreso than what C++ would (without a good guide). If I were you, I would learn programming and tackle one of the proper, popular programming languages first. Teach yourself to program - do not teach yourself a language. This way, things like PHP, JavaScript will follow and come to you naturally. C++ is the Swiss army knife of languages, and has a very sharp blade. You can craft something beautiful, or make a bloody mess; it requires a lot of self-discipline to use effectively, which is why I recommend Java for your first. My two pence Last edited by Jamie Edwards; 05-31-2008 at 04:05 PM.
Posted by Mike - Limestone, 05-31-2008, 04:02 PM PHP is an excellent choice for web-based applications. Perl has a lot of power, as well, though I find PHP to be faster to write code with (personally). Python has an ever-growing fan base, and I hear good things about the language every day. It's worth checking into. Aside from all the other excellent suggestions in this thread, I would like to recommend Ruby on Rails, as well. It's almost a bit of a fad language, but it's immensely useful for writing web-based applications with great speed. -mike
Posted by Kevin_D, 05-31-2008, 04:52 PM I agree with going with PHP too, there are tons of resources online that are very useful to help learn the language.
Posted by embro, 06-02-2008, 08:54 PM My vote would go for Ruby On Rails, Python and PHP.
Posted by Ileana, 06-03-2008, 09:54 AM I would say PHP. I originally learned PERL and then picked up PHP while working and loved it! Speaking of new languages I think I'm going to look into Python myself..
Posted by Steve_Arm, 06-03-2008, 12:48 PM This is like wanting to become a pilot because you can drive a car. Learning C++ or to be more kind, C, should be taught, because like you say learning the types and their usage it's not something you get overnight. Not to mention grasping the concept of string usage in C. With knowledge of html only, which I don't even consider a "language" he should start with php and some easy tutorials
Posted by tkdaging, 06-03-2008, 03:17 PM I think both of PHP and C language are good, depend of what is the goal. If want to make creation or develop web, PHP is good. and C for low level language, connected other device (ex.micro-p) with computer.
Posted by Snargleflap, 06-03-2008, 04:09 PM Lol I just love it when people spew this kind of baseless nonesense. Why don't you provide us with some technical facts that back up your claims and explain to us why it is a "crappy language"? Most of the time it's because it's not based on any in-depth technical knowledge, but rather it's an uniformed opinion voiced by someone who has no experience with it. I've been programming for 22 years total, 12 on the web including the original Cold Fusion when it was Allaire, classic Asp, Asp.Net, and PHP. I love them all, and while PHP is very powerful, it can't touch what you can do inside the .Net framework in the way of integrating with the environment, system, applications and so on, all with your choice of any number of languages including VB, C#, C++, and many others, including Cobol for crying out loud. I can use MS Sql, MySql, Access, or any one of a number of other databases out there, usually with no more effort than changing a connection string in my web.config file. I build enterprise-level web applications serving thousands of users. Within the same environment I can build and deploy a web application, a desktop application, or a Window's OS service, all with very few code differences. But let's remember, it's a crappy language that isn't very powerful. Vb.Net is a powerful OOP development language that offers extremely fast application prototyping inside the Studio development environment. So please, do elaborate with all your experience on why vb is such a crappy language... don't tell me how great php is, I already know that it's an awesome language, I want to hear your technical explanations of why vb is crappy.
Posted by Nick Charlton, 06-03-2008, 05:31 PM Its not "crappy", its just a poor recommendation to tell someone to spend a large amount of time learning. I could say that I know "classic" ASP and (old) Visual Basic, it was fun learning and using, but not something that I'd recommend, not in this day and age. It is much better to spend much longer learning something which is cross-platform. C/C++ is. I'm not yet that far into learning C++ however when I have it cornered I'll be able to programme for Windows, Linux, Mac, Symbian and all the rest you can list after reading the documentation provided with relevant SDK. VB.NET suffers from exactly these problems, once you learn it you are stuck with one platform, as far as I understand so you are in effect charging yourself more for something that can effectively do less. Its like buying a 4" knife for more money than a Swiss Army Knife to do the same job. What I will always recommend with such a thing; think about the future rather than now. C++ is the most widely used language, I can't see this attraction dropping with its cross-platform abilities. Nick
Posted by Snargleflap, 06-03-2008, 07:54 PM Thanks for the response Nick. This is exactly the type of thing I was referring to. There's an awful lot of bias flying around these forums, and it's refreshing to see someone make an intelligent point rather than just spewing out uninformed opinions. I agree, but we're not talking about classic asp or vb6 here. The point really isn't even the language, it's the dot net framework, which has almost made the choice of language unimportant. I can agree with this, you are positioning yourself to be platform-independent which makes your skill set more versatile. But this is where I disagree with you. When people take this position, it implies that Microsoft is unstable, or isn't going to be around for long, and that's just not the case. The installation of IIS servers is on the rise, and MS has really jockeyed themselves into a sweet position with the dot net framework. In my 22 years of development, I've never been more marketable than I am now with .Net under my belt. I'd be willing to wager that MS is going to be around long after I've stopped programming too.
Posted by Tim Greer, 06-03-2008, 07:58 PM These topics of "what is worth learning" and "in what order/what's the most popular or important language" are common here and you'll see all sorts of answers from different people based upon their own experiences and feelings. My suggestion is that there's not really many you shouldn't bother learning, and they all have some relation to another language, so learn whatever you feel like. If you have a particular idea in mind, a particular operating system or feature or protocol requirement, perhaps some cost restrictions involved, that could help weed out what will work for you the soonest.
Posted by Snargleflap, 06-04-2008, 07:27 PM Probably the best response to the question so far.
Posted by djorgensen, 06-05-2008, 06:49 AM What a load of rubbish! Not very powerful? It produces the same output as C#, Managed C++ as its a .NET Langage! PHP, You think thats "powerful"? lol Are you on another planet? MONO, it runs on Linux and .NET runs quite nicely on top of that! SilverLight? Yer that runs managed code! What did you get that dribble from? C++ is not the most widely used language, C# is and thats a .NET langage. VB6 was before that! Might I point out Microsoft started out as a platform company, providing developer tools, compliers and VB.NET is a direct development of the original product. Therefore you can consider VB.NET as Microsofts longest development project to date! So what to learn: Go buy yourself a book on C# or VB.NET C++ is not for someone starting out, PHP isnt going to teach you programming but how to hack something together and if you really dislike Microsoft go learn Java. Last edited by djorgensen; 06-05-2008 at 06:55 AM.
Posted by Nick Charlton, 06-05-2008, 07:35 AM C++ has been around since 1983, C# has been around since 2001; I cannot see how C# is the most widely used language. Unless of course no-one uses C++, oh, wait, most things do... I don't see it as a like or dislike, I see it as learning the most appropriate language for the task. I don't want to spend X amount of time learning a language, to find out that in 6th months time I am unable to do what I want because I learned the wrong language from the start. With C/C++ skills can be taken from one platform and very slightly adjusted for a new platform. This is what makes it a popular language and makes absolute sense why people would choose to programme with it. Limiting your skills because something is slightly easier is a silly mistake, as, I have, regretted it down the line. With such a question, as which the original poster asked. Although it is down to personal preference; my opinion is to learn the most dynamic tool you can. It will aid you in the long run, and if you look (taking C++ as an example) it has influenced many other languages. Including C#. Nick
Posted by blueroomhosting, 06-06-2008, 02:24 PM I honestly don't believe what I am seeing, two pages in and no one has recommended lisp, what is the world coming to? I'm not saying lisp is necessarily a good choice, but you are always supposed to have one lisp advocate on any programming language discussion, it is in the rules. Since no one else is stepping up I guess I'll just have to do my bit. But firstly, this is learning to program for fun right? I have had more fun programming in Python than anything else because it is: elegant - easy to write and easy to read consistent - no weirdnesses to ruin your fun convenient - strong types with dynamic bindings let you deal with things properly without bogging you down fully featured - there are lots of libraries as standard and plenty more. Python may not be the most suitable language for you, it is just the most fun language I have used. Now, onto the unnecessary lisp advocacy. Why not learn lisp? It is the one true language after all - the others are shoddy man made constructs, only lisp was derived from pure mathematical ether. Actually I do predominantly program in lisp, but such things are probably better done in privacy. Jim
Posted by tinkertim, 06-06-2008, 03:18 PM Don't forget M4!!
Posted by case, 06-06-2008, 10:14 PM C# according to the TIOBE index which is considered the standard when it comes to programming language usage, ranks #7 behind #3 C++. It also shows C# on the decline in usage. http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/conte...pci/index.html Java has been #1 for quite sometime. PHP ranks #4.
Posted by case, 06-06-2008, 10:41 PM might as well mention haskell and matlab while we're at it!
Posted by djorgensen, 06-07-2008, 02:44 PM Data from ComputerWorld would suggest as I said C# was the most popular. Computerworld conducted a developer survey that measured which programming languages are in use by the developer's company: 1. C# - 72% 2. Java - 66% 3. Visual Basic - 62% 4. C++ - 54% 5. JavaScript - 50% 6. Unix Shell Scripts - 42% 7. Perl - 34% 8. C - 32% 9. PHP - 16% 10. Python - 8% 11. Delphi - 7% 12. TCL - 6% 13. Ruby - 1% So if you want to be a hack working on small scale websites earning enough to buy an old ford go learn PHP!
Posted by BurakUeda, 06-07-2008, 02:57 PM That survey is over 3 years old
Posted by Jamie Edwards, 06-07-2008, 03:01 PM Here is a more current and up to date one: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/conte...pci/index.html
Posted by Tim Greer, 06-07-2008, 03:04 PM A lot of these surveys are done with some of the larger corporations. It means something, but not everything. After all, this is why people still use Cobol. It really depends on the platform and your goals, who you work for if it's a contract or job and so on. I don't believe the survey would be anywhere near the same if they polled every privately contracted and employed programmer online. Also, the surveys that favor some over others like the above, are usually not primarily people that code for things used online. Does this user want to develop for online only, or for a corporation for business to business/only corporatewide, or be prepared for both? I think that's an important question. Of course, that would result in a lot of not very qualified programmers if a poll was done for anyone that thought they were a programmer, but it would be more realistic. Additionally, this is an important key to that survey: "The software production activity was mixed; more (39%) respondents indicated that the software development at their company was for internal use only than for other uses. More than half (58%) reported that they work in enterprise development, developing applications that are deployed for corporatewide or business-to-business use.", and furthermore, you can see that 60% said they do not develop Linux applications. If you add in the one's that "plan to in a year" and "don't know", that bumps it up to at least 71% according to that very survey, whom don't use Linux. The companies surveyed are clearly using Windows and they are using what they think is best (or they know best) for that platform, and that's fine, but that's what explains the survey results... and who knows how many companies were surveyed/whom participated. This is okay, but it is just more of a survey of Windows developers and that alters the results, depending on how you're viewing it. I think anyone could point to about any survey that will support their language/API/Framework of choice as being popular. They are all popular enough and can work, depending on your goal, and I stand by my original post. Rather than debating about what's most popular and posting a biased survey to support your claim, just encourage the poster to learn what applies to their goal. C# would be fine, and so would C, or C++, or Python, or Perl, or PHP, or according to that survey, even Delphi (really?). In fact, a lot of the survey's answers didn't make any sense. Such as the preferred Framework/API question. Unix/Linux should have been under "other", since this wasn't about the platform used, and that would have bumped it up to 49% with the existing "other", making it a very close one to MS .NET. How does 49% develop in the Linux "API" when 60% or more don't even develop/use Linux? I suppose those aren't bad stats, considering they primarily surveyed Windows developers (a trend I notice with all pro MS product surveys). Also, consider that there's no need to separate HTML, CGI, etc. from Linux or MS. I just think the survey was poorly outlined and doesn't really make much sense. They should have just come out and flatly asked "What do you use? Unix/Linux, Windows or Mac?" and showed the percentage of use for the people that apparently did take this survey. After all, I'm fairly particular that without a survey that you can accurately assume that most Windows users will use Microsoft .Net and Microsoft Win32/COM/DCOM in their daily development. Go figure. The point is, does the OP want to develop on Windows or FOR Windows? For online or off, or both? For what purposes and goals? I'd not want to suggest a language or API that works better on a unix variant if they want to use Windows and I'd not want to suggest a Windows strong API/Framework or language if they wanted to just use Unix variants. This survey is only relevant to Windows developers is my point, but it certainly does show what those developers prefer, so it's relevant, but not in the grand scope of the question (at least it's relevant in the grand scope in that aspect, so someone could start debating for the Unix/Linux side now, but where would this help without knowing what the OP even has in mind?) Anyway, whatever works for them (the original poster), I don't think it would be a loss to learn anything. Why try and sway them to be on one platform or use a particular API/Framework? Why try and convince the OP of anything? They asked what might be worth learning, and that question is far too vague to be a basis for another language/platform debate. Personally, I don't work in an environment to use anything .NET and have no need or desire to, but it's clearly a popular choice for those that want to or already do, and that's fine, too. There is no language anyone needs to learn, unless they want to specialize on a specific platform, API, Framework, or whatever is relevant to them. Not relevant, but I had to laugh at the bottom of that survey page: "500 Servlet Exception java.lang.IllegalStateException: forward() not allowed after buffer has committed. at com.caucho.server.webapp.RequestDispatcherImpl.forward(RequestDispatcherImpl.java:139) at com.caucho.server.webapp.RequestDispatcherImpl.error(RequestDispatcherImpl.java:113) at com.caucho.server.webapp.ErrorPageManager.sendServletError(ErrorPageManager.java:363) at com.caucho.server.webapp.WebAppFilterChain.doFilter(WebAppFilterChain.java:180) at com.caucho.server.dispatch.ServletInvocation.service(ServletInvocation.java:229) at com.caucho.server.hmux.HmuxRequest.handleRequest(HmuxRequest.java:419) at com.caucho.server.port.TcpConnection.run(TcpConnection.java:389) at com.caucho.util.ThreadPool.runTasks(ThreadPool.java:492) at com.caucho.util.ThreadPool.run(ThreadPool.java:425) at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:534)" Last edited by Tim Greer; 06-07-2008 at 03:17 PM.
Posted by Nick Charlton, 06-07-2008, 03:11 PM That also suggests different results to the first one, this being Java. I would suggest that there is no way to tell, with an accurate figure the popularity of any programming language, as each language is marketed differently to another. Sales figures cannot be used, and questionaaires can't show a representitive figure. Nick
Posted by Tim Greer, 06-07-2008, 03:30 PM Unless I was looking at another page, that other survey page posted shows C# far, far down on the list of popular languages in rankings? Anyway, I just find it troubling that the questions and answers on these "surveys" and how they are grouped together, seem to very blatantly illustrate that the people asking the questions or compiling the results have no idea what they are even talking about or asking in the first place. The only trend I can see that outlines what's proven as popular regarding these surveys, is that the people performing them are generally clueless and are far from qualified to pretend they are offering any useful or accurate stats and rankings. This is not only just the case with language surveys either, of course. Look at that site itself, the second link posted. They say "The popular search engines Google, MSN, Yahoo!, and YouTube are used to calculate the ratings." YouTube? Really? I feel like they added YouTube to that list of "sources", because of its popularity, as I can't see any relevant reason to be using that as any source about what language is most popular. I see their explanation of why they use YouTube, but I think it's a good assumption that YouTube will only have presentations/videos about specific APIs/Frameworks and particular languages that wouldn't be as appropriate for other languages, so I think it's a waste. I don't trust any of these sites are being compiled by people that know what they're doing. The only remotely accurate way to tell (and not very much at that even), is a global poll, where anyone that is paid to develop anything at all is able to participate, for whatever that would be worth, and that would be a waste of time as well. Last edited by Tim Greer; 06-07-2008 at 03:41 PM.
Posted by mpope, 06-20-2008, 11:51 PM I'm a little late to the discussion, but had to chime in. People think VB is not as powerful of a language because earlier non-.net vb languages were traditionally more like scripting languages and hence attracted more of the hobbyist. So the syntax is not really liked among "real" programmers (not to say that there were no real vb6 and earlier programmers, just that it was a lot less common to find such a person). It is true, VB.net is a powerful language, in fact it has some features which even C# does not have yet (filters!). However I dont think it will ever overcome it's past, which has the stigma of being "what the noobs use". Even though it is a .net language, it really is the bastard child of .net, as most "real" programmers would prefer a c-ish kind of syntax (ie c#) and usually scoff at the first sight of a "dim". And you do actually care what other programmers think, because in most jobs you will have to interact with them, swap code, etc. So "speaking" the same language as most programmers, definitely helps. However, since .net 2.0 ... "real" .net language programmers have been extremely high in demand. So if you really learn programming, and your language of choice is VB, you'll still be in high demand for your skills. Even C# programmers have that hobbyist stigma to a particular extent, so if you can really program, no worries. So, you should really just learn whatever language you like most, try to learn good programming practices and call it all good. If you learn a language you'll never use again, at least it is another language you can put on your resume. And you never know what opportunity could arise from that! :p Last edited by mpope; 06-20-2008 at 11:56 PM.
Posted by Snargleflap, 06-21-2008, 03:01 AM I don't agree with that at all. As early as VB3 I was developing professional business applications for client companies. At my last employer, all enterprise development was done in vb6, developing high-end business applications for a user base of more than 10,000 workstations across the corporation's nationwide network. Vb6 was a well respected development platform in the business world at large. Generally, any negative stigma around it came from detractors who either didn't know anything about it, or just took the typical anti-microsoft stance because we all know that microsoft is evil. Of course it wasn't as powerful as C++ and similar languages with respect to what you can do at a lower level, but guess what? Businesses for the most part want "business" applications written, and the vb6 platform provided an environment where business apps could be written very quickly, in a very cost-effective way. When we needed a driver written, or some OS-level utility, then you bring in the C guys. I've been a programmer for 22 years, primarily cobol on a midrange platform, and from the very beginning I've heard the "C" people talking about how their language was going to kill off cobol. To this day I STILL do a significant amount of cobol coding, though my main focus is now asp.net. Oh, and by the way, you can use Cobol in the .Net framework too, if you want. The bottom line, regardless of who prefers what, the tool best suited for the job is going to rise to the top in the business world. I think that too many people are still hung up on "which language" when talking about .Net, which is sort of missing the point. The real focus on .Net is the framework. It's almost to a point where the language is becoming irrelevant because the power of the framework is accessible by all of them. While I code in vb, if I find a slick piece of C# code, I can add that to my project as well. I can have a blend of languages all in the same project if I want to. Very true, and very wise.
Posted by aditya2071990, 06-24-2008, 01:46 AM Wow Tim, u've got loads of patience to type out all that, I must say!
Posted by Tim Greer, 06-24-2008, 02:07 AM I'm a typing fool. :-)
Posted by Ultralite, 07-30-2008, 05:32 AM Wow! I'm totally confused! It's the summer holidays and i'm not sure. I'll stick to learning the basic php at the moment. Possibly VB soon.
Posted by ytz991, 07-30-2008, 05:41 AM Go to some job site and start typing in languages. One that pays most is the best
Posted by Edevere, 07-30-2008, 05:08 PM You probably want to adjust for number of jobs also. Hacking OCaml at Jane St. Capital probably pays very well, but then if you leave there, what are your options for OCaml work compared to Java or .NET? If your interest in programming is solely commercial just learn Java and/or .Net -- plenty of jobs and good average salary.
Posted by Form1, 07-30-2008, 06:51 PM Largely, VB.net is C# with longer keywords - it bears little or no relation to earlier versions of VB. There is a reason why professional VB developers took to calling it "Visual Fred" - which isn't to say that earlier versions of VB didn't have their flaws, of course. Of course, many people like C#, and if it works for you, fantastic - but many former VB developers abandoned VB.net because it has more in common with C# than VB. Take it easy, David Berube Last edited by Form1; 07-30-2008 at 07:00 PM.
Posted by Snargleflap, 07-31-2008, 02:00 PM Ok, but all that said, it still doesn't make it a crappy language. In fact, if what you say is true then it makes it all the more useful because of its similarities with C#. Which brings to mind another point I make time and again, that the language you choose in .net is becoming less relevant because they are syntactically similar, all utilizing the .net framework. What it really boils down to, is what's the standard at your shop? Where I work it's vbscript, but I would be just as happy learning C#.
Posted by Form1, 07-31-2008, 02:11 PM This is becoming more true all the time; I wouldn't go far as to say choice of language is irrelevant, but if your working with, say, QT, your GUI handling code is going to look very similar no matter the language - it's going to look like QT code. Of course, a *really* good API will respect your languages eccentricities - FXRuby is a great example of this - but more often than not it more closely reflects the language the library was written in. Take it easy, David Berube Last edited by Form1; 07-31-2008 at 02:22 PM.
Posted by Snargleflap, 07-31-2008, 02:26 PM I said "becoming less relevant" not "is irrelevant" A case in point for the similarities; when I first started with .net it was all brand new to me. On my first project, I added a page and started banging away at the code-behind. I got several lines into the code when I had difficulty with the syntax of a certain function. It took me another 5 minutes before I realized that the language for the page I added was set to C#. I was coding in vbscript.
Posted by Form1, 07-31-2008, 03:51 PM Sorry - I did not mean to imply that you had said that; I actually meant it contextlessly, which is pointlessly confusing, given that you had just said something very similar. Personally, I think Microsoft should have kept a language legitimately linked to the VB of yore - in philosophy, anyway, if not in exact syntax. Then again, perhaps that would have entailed pointlessly holding back the framework for historical reasons. Take it easy, David Berube
Posted by inspiritnetworks, 08-03-2008, 08:44 PM I use PHP and it's a very easy language to understand and get the hang of. Editing scripts is a good way to start since you know how code is meant to be changed and created on a document.
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